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Re: There is no God.

Postby Thanatos » Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:41 am

I didn't enjoy reading it :(

EDIT: Aww crap, page 9. This is gonna go on forever. I think the longest thread ever is, like, 16 pages or so? (I looked)
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Re: There is no God.

Postby lyteside » Sun Feb 01, 2009 4:17 pm

to tell you the truth, i didn't either at first. it made me feel uncomfortable in some areas. definitely a good book for getting the blood flowing and some new thoughts stirring, weather you disagree with the whole thing, agree with it, or somewhere in between.
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Re: There is no God.

Postby lyteside » Sun Feb 01, 2009 4:19 pm

paul_one wrote:True, but just because *I* write down something, it doesn't make it true either.


i don't think anybody here disagrees with that. the clapping example simply illustrates the fallacy of inaction = non-existence.

it refers to function; not to be confused with properties. an example is in coding.

------------------
Let's say create variable (A) and assign a few properties to like "voice". Then I also assign an ability to function to it that I can call for, like singing. Then let's place (A) in room [1] and not place it in room [2]

so Joe walks into room [1] and does a search for singing, because he can't do a search for properties. Nope, no singing occuring. He concludes that variable A may or may not be in the room, when in fact, it is.

Bob walks into room [2] and does a search for the voice property. nope no voice property. He can undoubtedly conclude that variable (A) is not in the room.

James walks into room [1] and does a search for singing. because no singing is occuring, this guy concludes there must not be a voice, because he believes voices would sing if they existed. his premise is incorrect, because he is confusing function with property.
------------------

and this is generally how various people think about things.

so obviously, because "blowing" is a property of wind, wind is not existing if we cannot detect blowing. But since blowing into the air is a function of a person (not a property) we cannot say for sure whether the person exists or not based on a lack of blowing.
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Re: There is no God.

Postby Elexxorine » Sun Feb 01, 2009 5:23 pm

Wind is moving air, so has to blow. If the wind is stopped it's not there, it's simply air.

But yes, I agree. Things can be essentially 'hidden'. But then you question is, what is the point of being without doing? If god does exist in the way christians, etc describe him, why does he not get off his cloud and help us?
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Re: There is no God.

Postby lyteside » Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:34 pm

Elexxorine wrote:Wind is moving air, so has to blow. If the wind is stopped it's not there, it's simply air.


yup!


Elexx, is there something that i can pray for you for? i will ask God to reveal himself to you and really guide you in the things you are needing help with.
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Re: There is no God.

Postby Thanatos » Mon Feb 02, 2009 6:58 am

Meaning...? :?
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Re: There is no God.

Postby Elexxorine » Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:43 am

It's fine Lyte. I used to be a Christian, as my parents were but as I grew older I just couldn't follow the beliefs. And I see going and doing things is more important than praying, make the results happen yourself. That said, some people need the reassurance of a higher being to hold their hand through life, others can manage without that. If you feel that you think you will feel better by praying, then you may do so, it's not like I can stop you anyway.

I will not impose my beliefs on anyone or try to change their opinion, I respect their views; and expect that others do the same, to do otherwise is hypocrisy.
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Re: There is no God.

Postby steve the gaming guy » Mon Feb 02, 2009 2:58 pm

Elexxorine wrote:But yes, I agree. Things can be essentially 'hidden'. But then you question is, what is the point of being without doing? If god does exist in the way christians, etc describe him, why does he not get off his cloud and help us?


How do we know God hasn't gotten "off his cloud and helped us"? Are there not any good things that happen in the world? Are we so overcome by the evil doings of the world that we forget the good things that happen? What is interesting (and I think this was partially discussed on page 1 or 2) is when bad things happen, people like to blame God but when good things happen, people congratulate themselves as if to say "see we don't need God".

So far, it sounds like lyteside is the closest to my outlook on God than anyone. I appreciate your offer to pray for Elex and it couldn't matters to pray for anyone and everyone, there are just other things to remember. The Bible does talk about praying to assist in matters but it also talks about God helping those who help themselves which leans towards what Elex was saying about going out there and doing things for yourself.
By the way, Elex, I don't know if I asked you this before but when you say you used to be a Christian, do you mean that you used to go to church or was there a time when you asked Jesus to save you? A common misconception (again if I hadn't addressed this before) is that a Christian is someone who simply is a churchgoer and that is not necessarily the case.

Paul, I hope by your brain comment, you aren't insulting anyone in this thread. If so, what you are saying is that if someone doesn't think like you, they have no brain. That's what I took it as anyway.

Oh one last note only because I wanted to mention the Super Bowl that was on last night, lol. If someone prays for something and it doesn't happen, it doesn't mean God didn't answer the prayer; there are more answers than simply "yes". So if someone prayed for the Cardinals to win last night, God said 'no'. lol
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Re: There is no God.

Postby Redsun » Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:55 pm

The bible: The best story of all time, whether It's fact or fiction is besides the point. :)
I personally Don't follow the bible, I Don't need a book to try to convince me how I should believe.

I Believe in God but I don't think God is higher then mother nature, if anything Mother nature is god.
but there are many different opinions on this.
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Re: There is no God.

Postby lyteside » Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:27 pm

Elexxorine wrote:If god does exist in the way christians, etc describe him, why does he not get off his cloud and help us?


Elexxorine wrote:And I see going and doing things is more important than praying, make the results happen yourself.


I'm slightly confused. are you getting at God doesn't help us because we're suppose to make the results happen ourselves?

Elexxorine wrote:That said, some people need the reassurance of a higher being to hold their hand through life, others can manage without that.


Do you see me as someone that needs reassurance and cannot manage without that? (i hope my tone doesn't come across mean or anything, i'm just curious.)

steve the gaming guy wrote:So far, it sounds like lyteside is the closest to my outlook on God than anyone. I appreciate your offer to pray for Elex and it couldn't matters to pray for anyone and everyone, there are just other things to remember. The Bible does talk about praying to assist in matters but it also talks about God helping those who help themselves...


thanks for the encouragement, Steve! I do believe prayer is enough, and that God is capable of changing hearts. We cannot help ourselves if sin or our sinful nature is obstructing our pursuit of truth. I also do not find "God helping those who help themselves" to be a overtly biblical. That's not to say its not true. but Jesus often talks about coming to heal the sick, not those that think they are okay. It is indeed impossible to "fix" things when your tools are broken. If faith and trust is truly what God deems worthy in his eyes, yet the bible says that faith comes from the Lord, than God is most definitely our savior and the beginning of all redemptive things!

This is what I find so fascinating of gospel. If it is indeed true, than our wildest dreams have come true. That a creator that is full of power and authority has made himself like us and engaged with us as the most intimate of friends, to love us, to die for us, to discipline us, to mentor us, to grant our desires; all with the purpose of wooing our hearts to him and enjoying his creation with him, becoming and entering all that we were meant to be.

If the gospel is a lie, it is a cruel lie to shame and humiliate us, giving us hope where there is none really to have.

I believe it is true.
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Re: There is no God.

Postby lyteside » Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:44 pm

Thanatos wrote:Meaning...? :?


??
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Re: There is no God.

Postby Redsun » Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:57 pm

Actually god doesn't change hearts, men do.
no Idea why so many think we all sinned and need to repent etc.

Even the bible explains how men make there own choices, not God.
I'm a big believer in Karma and Mother nature, I see nothing that is
over mother nature therefore I will not imagine any different, If god
wanted to be known lets say then god will have no problem letting himself be known.
Until then Nature is the only God I know, see, feel, breath, hear and live.

Christians and Catholics talk so much about the truth yet they to can be blinded by written stories and
mis translated scripts.

Not saying Christians and catholics are all blinded, I met a few who are very good people, some of the
nicest people you'll meet and who follow there religion very closely but not blinded as to the way other
people believe.

But you do have some who take it to the next level and refuse any kind of fact like science, yet there so quick
to say non-Christians or non-Catholics can't handle the truth or should seek the truth.
They need to practice what they preach.
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Re: There is no God.

Postby lyteside » Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:58 pm

I believe both God and men can change hearts, among many other things.

Concerning sin, all I really know is that I've done my share of mistakes and crap in my life, to others, God, and myself, but I've experienced redemption, forgiveness, and love that's really turned my heart around to wanting to help and love others instead of hurting them. Let me explain what this is not. The part about Christianity that is a lie is drawing a line in the sand and saying "those that don't believe the way we do over on this side are stupid, ignorant, and full of sinful nature" That not only is rude and pathetic, but it has no power to change hearts and love. Rather, we are all in the same boat. We have all fallen short. We've all made mistakes. We have all hurt each other, believer and non-believer alike. And God does love all of us, even those rude, stupid Christians,thankfully.

Redsun wrote:Even the bible explains how men make there own choices, not God.


That's incorrect.
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Re: There is no God.

Postby Redsun » Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:13 pm

I Totally agree, see we aren't so different after all.

There were times where I'd do something very good so that It'll be returned
to me in someway or another(KARMA), there was a time when I only had $10 on
me and spent it on some girl scout cookies, then I gave the cookies to my mother expecting nothing in return, I Don't expect
the karma to be returned to be but it improves my odds :)

Another time one of my friends wanted to buy a PC off of my other friend, he refused to sell
her it because he didn't know her well, I Offered to buy it off him instead, he sold it to me for $75 and
I Gave it to my other friend asking nothing in return.

or being honest to can help you, Like when a store we were shopping at placed a few Items in
our bag that wasn't ours, we were outside and I asked my wife to run these back into
the store and let them know they weren't ours.
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Re: There is no God.

Postby Redsun » Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:15 pm

It is correct not Incorrect I can prove this if you'd like ;)
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